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bending_sickleOkay so there's drama on Tumblr and it involves something I said and it's messy and people are going for blood from the get-go and so I'm going to just talk to myself about it here because I need to talk about it but it's not going on Tumblr because Jesus gods some people turn into rabid wolves who don't even take the time to think before they leap for the jugular. Or maybe I will put it on Tumblr, I don't know.
Tumblr user affectingly wrote a post, Teen Wolf, Sterek, Scott McCall, & Racism
Here's the post that started things.
So far what I'm getting from this is that apparently the fandom thinks that a) if you like Sterek it's because you're a racist fuckwit who hates Scott because you're a racist fuckwit and b) if you don't think Scott is latino it's because you're a racist fuckwit. I disagree with these implications, because there are other reasons why people might like or not like characters, but I'm sure that in some cases, these racist fuckwitery reasons are the reasons why some people like or don't like characters.
However, that doesn't mean there isn't racist fuckwitery and that it isn't a problem, that the issues the post raises aren't important, that this isn't something we should all be aware of and trying to mitigate and, if possible, stop entirely. I am in complete agreement with this and have nothing to add beyond, "Yes let's educate and raise awareness and try and change things."
My problem with the post, and the only thing I addressed in the tags, was the absolute certainty of the statement, "Scott is Latino". So I flailed in the tags:
Let me try and break this down into simpler terms.
From the show - not word-of-god in the form of the show creator Jeff Davis or the actor Tyler Posey - what we know about Scott McCall's heritage is his last name and his skin tone. Neither of these are "latino identifyers", in that they don't fucking identify whether someone is or is not latino. A red-haired John Smith can be just as latino as a mocha-skinned Jesus Alvarez can be not latino. (Read this if you're confused: PSA on Latino, Hispanic, Chicano, etc. (EDITED) by political-linguaphile) So in the show there is no evidence or hint that he's latino.
Jeff Davis said in a tweet that Scott's mother's maiden name is Delgado. This is not exactly in-your-face (i.e. in-your-show) flag waving of "Scott is a latino". People who didn't read the tweet wouldn't know that the lead is supposed to be latino. The show isn't exactly going "hey look our lead is a latino character".
Except when Davis tweets about how great it is that the show had a latino lead which I always took to mean the actor, Tyler Posey, who is in fact latino and, in fact, chicano (i.e. American of Mexican descent, in that his mom's Mexican). But the actor's identity is not the character's identity, so Tyler being latino does not mean that Scott is latino, because it's an identity and a heritage, not a physical trait.
If we're talking about physical traits, then we could apply an actor's traits to a character's traits, and say that Tyler is a POC - person of colour - so therefore Scott is a POC.
(Wiki, on person of color: "is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white" although this is a less than straighforward definition because, as Wiki on White people says, "white people, rather than being a straightforward description of skin color, is a term denoting a specific set of ethnic groups and functions as a color metaphor for race". Which kind of puts a dent on the whole "physcal traits of an actor being applied to their character" logic above.)
Tyler Posey's also said, apparently repeated times, that Scott's Mexican. (Which can I just remind people is a nationality and not an ethnicity?) This is still not in the show.
So basically people watching the show and not watching interviews or reading tweets aren't going to know that Scott is latino. So how exactly is Scott being positive representation for latinos in a television show if the show won't say he is latino?
So that was my only gripe with the post and the only thing I addressed, which was that we do not have in show identification of Scott's heritage.
And now for the raging wolves:
I'm just going to break down one paragraph here:
"melissa mccall’s maiden name is DELGADO" -> As I said above, this is something said in a tweet and it not in the show.
"tyler posey identifies scott as mexican in SEVERAL interviews" -> Again, this is not stated in the show.
"jeff-problematic-as-fuck-davis is always patting himself on the back that his lead is of color" -> Which I always took to mean the actor, not the character, because these things have not been said in the show. And again, being "of color" does not automatically mean one is latino (which was one of my main points in the tags).
As for the last name thing, I've already addressed that. Being called "McCall" doesn't mean Scott can't be latino, but just because he can't not be doesn't mean he is, and the show hasn't dealt with this in the show, tweets and interviews notwithstanding.
I'm not telling anyone how anyone identifies I was just saying that the show should show it in the show.
(It's kind like when J.K. Rowling saying Dumblredore said gay but the books not saying it. Or like with G.R.R. Martin and Renly Baratheon being gay, although in that case the subtext was strong and pretty much shouting it from the rooftops the whole while. With Scott, the show isn't even whispering him being latino from the rooftops.)
Charming.
And for the record, I'm Mexican and Spanish and have lived in a fuckton of countries including Spain, Mexico and Costa Rica, it's not like I don't know about latinos and hispanics and chicanos and all those other fucking generalist labels people use instead of nationalities. (Imagine if we did the same and clumped all the people from ex-British colonies under one label, irrespective of everything else about their identity, nationality, history, country or ethnicity, wouldn't that be a riot.)
ETA: This has been discussed a little bit on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
ohnotheydidnt. See, for example, this thread, this thread, this thread, this thread and this thread.
In other news, I wrote fic: Complicity (Teen Wolf: Kate, Derek)
I also flailed on Tumblr about life and stuff here
Links of the Day:
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Whedonesque's Angel Meta "Touch Me and Die, Vermin!": The Psychoanalysis of Illyria. Get to know your favourite Old One.
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made_of_fail_pc's Episode Fifty-Eight: Pandering to the Audience
* Wikipedia, "Wolf Attacks on Humans"
Tumblr user affectingly wrote a post, Teen Wolf, Sterek, Scott McCall, & Racism
Here's the post that started things.
Generalizations suck, we know this, but I think we as Sterek fans need to take a breath. And then a few more.
[...] Here are some things to think about: Sterek fans are, by far, the most active part of this fandom. We produce the most fanfic, fanart, meta, graphics, etc. You name it, there are Sterek fans churning it out. We are not underrepresented. We get a lot of positive reinforcement and love.
I know it feels like the people talking about this fandom’s racism (or other -isms) is taking away from our enjoyment, but I’m here to say that that is a horribly privileged POV. Voices of people who have noticed uncool patterns in Teen Wolf fandom shouldn’t be silenced because they make you feel uncomfortable or defensive.
[...] We do not exist in a world where race doesn’t factor in. Even if your reasons for not liking Scott have absolutely, 100% *nothing* to do with his race (and hey, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and say that’s probably the case), his race still matters.
“But!” I hear you say. “I find him boring and he makes stupid choices and I just want to read about Derek and Stiles and it’s not like I hate Scott. I just don’t care! Why do I have to care??”
And to answer, let me repeat myself: Scott’s race still matters.
It’s always going to matter. Scott is Latino. Scott is the lead character on a fairly popular teen show. Positive race representation on that kind of show (or really, any kind of show) is extraordinarily important. And dismissing his race is undermining that importance. His race doesn’t stop counting just because you have other reasons for not liking him. He’s always going to be Latino. That doesn’t stop. And “not seeing race” *is* racist. Period.
[...] Race matters. Positive representation matters.
And the people who are SO MAD at the Sterek fans right now? I’d guess they’re mad because as a whole, Sterek fans are refusing to acknowledge this and/or call out the people who are contributing to the problem. We haven’t been collecting our people (and I’m including myself in this), and that’s got to stop.
[...] Talking about how terrible Scott is, how you wish he’d die, how useless he is, etc, etc, etc, isn’t cool. Yes, I said you’re allowed to not like Scott, but remember how I said our fandom doesn’t exist in a vacuum? Here’s where that comes in to play. SCOTT. IS. A. CHARACTER. OF. COLOR. When we throw that much hate on him, it’s simply not the same as hating on a white character. It’s just not. It’s never going to be, and trying to ignore/erase that he is of color won’t ever make it the same. It only makes it worse.
[...] I am not saying you’re a bad person if you’ve done any of these things. I am saying if you’ve done these things, take a breath, think it over, and stop doing them. That’s it. That’s how you fix this. And also by not telling people, fans of color in particular, that they are WRONG WRONG WRONG when they speak up about these issues.
[...] You don’t have to stop loving the thing you love in order to correct the problem. You don’t need to feel guilty for loving Sterek (I don’t). You just have to think about the ways in which you love it that might be damaging to other people.
And also? They don’t have to tell you that you’re not the people they’re talking about. You know how you make them stop generalizing? By not being the thing they’re talking about, by collecting the people who ARE doing that thing. Build your own fandom experience. You don’t like that Sterek fans are being called racist and ableist? Then go do your best to make sure Sterek fans aren’t being racist and ableist. Don’t silence the people calling out the problem.
So far what I'm getting from this is that apparently the fandom thinks that a) if you like Sterek it's because you're a racist fuckwit who hates Scott because you're a racist fuckwit and b) if you don't think Scott is latino it's because you're a racist fuckwit. I disagree with these implications, because there are other reasons why people might like or not like characters, but I'm sure that in some cases, these racist fuckwitery reasons are the reasons why some people like or don't like characters.
However, that doesn't mean there isn't racist fuckwitery and that it isn't a problem, that the issues the post raises aren't important, that this isn't something we should all be aware of and trying to mitigate and, if possible, stop entirely. I am in complete agreement with this and have nothing to add beyond, "Yes let's educate and raise awareness and try and change things."
My problem with the post, and the only thing I addressed in the tags, was the absolute certainty of the statement, "Scott is Latino". So I flailed in the tags:
#look it’s meta #okay wait hang on a fuck #tyler posey is latino (gods i hate using these terms) on his mother’s side #but as for scott mccall we’ve had not indication at all of whether he is latino or not #the only thing we have as to his heritage is his name which is what? scottish? #yeah so where are y’all getting that *scott* is latino #latino is an identity not a skin colour can we get this clear please #(apparently this makes me really angry?) #(it’s just that fuck people you are mixing actors with characters and asjhg) #(and also being latino has nothing to do with being white or not can we just get that please) #*rolling around in a little ball of rage*
Let me try and break this down into simpler terms.
From the show - not word-of-god in the form of the show creator Jeff Davis or the actor Tyler Posey - what we know about Scott McCall's heritage is his last name and his skin tone. Neither of these are "latino identifyers", in that they don't fucking identify whether someone is or is not latino. A red-haired John Smith can be just as latino as a mocha-skinned Jesus Alvarez can be not latino. (Read this if you're confused: PSA on Latino, Hispanic, Chicano, etc. (EDITED) by political-linguaphile) So in the show there is no evidence or hint that he's latino.
Jeff Davis said in a tweet that Scott's mother's maiden name is Delgado. This is not exactly in-your-face (i.e. in-your-show) flag waving of "Scott is a latino". People who didn't read the tweet wouldn't know that the lead is supposed to be latino. The show isn't exactly going "hey look our lead is a latino character".
Except when Davis tweets about how great it is that the show had a latino lead which I always took to mean the actor, Tyler Posey, who is in fact latino and, in fact, chicano (i.e. American of Mexican descent, in that his mom's Mexican). But the actor's identity is not the character's identity, so Tyler being latino does not mean that Scott is latino, because it's an identity and a heritage, not a physical trait.
If we're talking about physical traits, then we could apply an actor's traits to a character's traits, and say that Tyler is a POC - person of colour - so therefore Scott is a POC.
(Wiki, on person of color: "is a term used primarily in the United States to describe any person who is not white" although this is a less than straighforward definition because, as Wiki on White people says, "white people, rather than being a straightforward description of skin color, is a term denoting a specific set of ethnic groups and functions as a color metaphor for race". Which kind of puts a dent on the whole "physcal traits of an actor being applied to their character" logic above.)
Tyler Posey's also said, apparently repeated times, that Scott's Mexican. (Which can I just remind people is a nationality and not an ethnicity?) This is still not in the show.
So basically people watching the show and not watching interviews or reading tweets aren't going to know that Scott is latino. So how exactly is Scott being positive representation for latinos in a television show if the show won't say he is latino?
So that was my only gripe with the post and the only thing I addressed, which was that we do not have in show identification of Scott's heritage.
And now for the raging wolves:
wow how dare latin@s and other poc want representation in teen wolf
who gives a fuck if tyler posey himself says he plays scott as mexican
apparently they’re brown enough to get shat on, but not stereotypical enough to count as representation
i would like the url to this dickwaffle so i can tear them a new asshole [x]
pls
tell me
you’re
kidding???
melissa mccall’s maiden name is DELGADO which is a common as fuck latin surname and tyler posey identifies scott as mexican in SEVERAL interviews and even jeff-problematic-as-fuck-davis is always patting himself on the back that his lead is of color.
for all intents and purposes, scott mccall is latino and because he was raised by his mother, probably identifies as such (be it latin@, chicano, mexican-american).
AND HELLO, just because ruben blades’s name is BLADES which is english or some shit doesn’t make him any less panamanian.
javier culson? MORE BORICUA THAN YOU CAN SHAKE A STICK AT.
chile has a historical figure named bernardo O’HIGGINS. pretty sure he’s still CHILEAN???
there’s such a thing as white latino, but tpose AND scott both are so OBVIOUSLY NOT visibly WHITE that i don’t even know what you’re trying to say. this isn’t bleed-over.
i’m super puerto rican myself.
i’m boricua de pura sepa.
i’m also latin@ as fuck. [x]
I'm just going to break down one paragraph here:
"melissa mccall’s maiden name is DELGADO" -> As I said above, this is something said in a tweet and it not in the show.
"tyler posey identifies scott as mexican in SEVERAL interviews" -> Again, this is not stated in the show.
"jeff-problematic-as-fuck-davis is always patting himself on the back that his lead is of color" -> Which I always took to mean the actor, not the character, because these things have not been said in the show. And again, being "of color" does not automatically mean one is latino (which was one of my main points in the tags).
As for the last name thing, I've already addressed that. Being called "McCall" doesn't mean Scott can't be latino, but just because he can't not be doesn't mean he is, and the show hasn't dealt with this in the show, tweets and interviews notwithstanding.
oh my GOD who the FUCK WROTE THOSE TAGS
I
AM REALLY FUCKING ANGRY RN
i hope someone is fucking tearing the shit outta them like u don’t even know i hope someone shut that down because that is NOT OKAY
how you gonna tell how tpose and scott - his CHARACTER - fucking identifies
he’s LATINO
that is not a fucking WAY OF ACTING it’s a motherfucking WAY OF LIFE
fuck off teen wolf fandom, fuck right the hell off a goddamn CLIFF [x]
I'm not telling anyone how anyone identifies I was just saying that the show should show it in the show.
(It's kind like when J.K. Rowling saying Dumblredore said gay but the books not saying it. Or like with G.R.R. Martin and Renly Baratheon being gay, although in that case the subtext was strong and pretty much shouting it from the rooftops the whole while. With Scott, the show isn't even whispering him being latino from the rooftops.)
lmao sneaky fucking tumblr button making follow bags of dicks on accident [x]
Charming.
And for the record, I'm Mexican and Spanish and have lived in a fuckton of countries including Spain, Mexico and Costa Rica, it's not like I don't know about latinos and hispanics and chicanos and all those other fucking generalist labels people use instead of nationalities. (Imagine if we did the same and clumped all the people from ex-British colonies under one label, irrespective of everything else about their identity, nationality, history, country or ethnicity, wouldn't that be a riot.)
ETA: This has been discussed a little bit on
ohnotheydidnt. See, for example, this thread, this thread, this thread, this thread and this thread.In other news, I wrote fic: Complicity (Teen Wolf: Kate, Derek)
I also flailed on Tumblr about life and stuff here
Links of the Day:
Supernatural:
tracy_loo_who's 8x02 Review The best thing that has ever happened to meOther Fandom:
lucylou's Comic Every Episode of Grey's AnatomyWhedonesque's Angel Meta "Touch Me and Die, Vermin!": The Psychoanalysis of Illyria. Get to know your favourite Old One.
Random:
greygirlbeast's Want (I Have Few Prayers)theweaselking's Gears everywhere ; How gysers worklucylou's Comic 12 Hour Comic Daymarika_kailaya's Only tell me about fun tings: A guide to mental health, from someone on antidepressantsmade_of_fail_pc's Episode Fifty-Eight: Pandering to the Audience* Wikipedia, "Wolf Attacks on Humans"
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no subject
Date: 2012-10-31 09:49 am (UTC)Also, we are not well-acquainted enough for you to be using endearments, so please do not call me "hon" or "bb" in the future.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-31 06:44 am (UTC)I wasn't aware of Scott being of any ethnicity, as I was just watching to watch and ethnicity simply never occurred to me. There was the slight, 'oh thank goodness there's a black actor, as I'm moritified by HW's misrepresentation of culture and diversity and the sheer voluminous amount of caucasian *I feel like I should raise my hand here and state 'present'* actors/actresses flooding my screen.
I suppose I'm all for awareness and education, representation on screen as long as it's done correctly, to avoid further negative stereotypes. What I'm really trying to suss out is, and I come from this at an author's level, how do you see the show acknowledging Scott's heritage. Do you mean by someone saying his mother's last name on the show, is it by pride items that would be shown in and around Scott's room, his locker, etc.?
I'm sorry others rushed to bite. Racism is going to invoke powerful emotions, and it doesn't matter how intelligent or nice you present your case, there's always the chance of things go kabloom. I probably made no sense whatsoever. Sorry.
Again, my being grossly out of the loop, I wasn't aware of this being an issue. I realize how much more comfortable I am when a gay character is acknowledged by the author or show, subtly or with great flair, and done so intelligently. That's the only way I know to relate. Thank you for sharing you're well-thought out criticisms and ideas.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-31 10:14 am (UTC)I wasn't aware of Scott being of any ethnicity - You're not the only one, which is exactly why, as I say in response to
how do you see the show acknowledging Scott's heritage. Do you mean by someone saying his mother's last name on the show, is it by pride items that would be shown in and around Scott's room, his locker, etc.? - I certainly don't think the show has to be heavy-handed about this at all. Considering Jeff Davis' tweet about Melissa McCall's maiden name (Delgado), stating that in the show would be a way to start and might even be enough.
I'm trying to think about how main latino characters are presented as such in other shows (e.g. Dr Torres in Grey's Anatomy, Detective Esposito in Castle) and it looks like it's through their names and their using Spanish at some point. These methods seem to be a bit on the "taking the short-cut" way of presenting a character as latino.
Also I guess it could be done in the same simple matter-of-fact style as Danny was presented as gay. Just a comment or two, with that aspect of the character simply being just one other thing characters talk to each other about.
Thank you once again for your comment.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-31 03:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-31 03:35 pm (UTC)